E51: TOLWM + Wendy Cocke x Part Deux and You as the Hottest Product on the Shelf

Yay! Wendy Cocke, Founder of Engineering Leadership Solutions LLC where she provides management coaching and leadership development, is back with me for Part 2 of our cast. We agreed we'd reconvene to get further into the soup of what it means to reimagine your work, your career, your YOU. Listen in for some damn good thinking that can be immediately applied to the day!

• Your Career as a Business: Selling YOU as the Product
• Becoming Shelf-Stable: The Tale of the Velveeta Cheese
• Market Research: Gathering Data on YOU
• Get a Board: Surround Yourself with Sound Feedback
• Put Pencil to Paper and Get Strategic
• Get Into It: Make Flex Work, Reimagine Your Work, When Work Works

Wendy can be found online at www.engineeringleadershipsolutions.com or https://www.linkedin.com/in/wendy-anderson-cocke/ or you can always email her at  wendy.anderson.cocke@gmail.com.

#flexwork #secondcareers #2ndcareers #reimaginework #leadership #selfleadership #marketingyourself #remotework #myterms #careeradvice #bloomstruck #thinkoutloudwithme #wendycocke #engineeringleadershipsolutions 

Transcript

Natalie P.: Well, Hello, Hello, beautiful humans! You are here to think out loud with me. I'm Natalie Peterson, casting in from my little neck of the woods in northern Colorado to you in yours, wherever and whenever that might be. This little digital adventure that I am on is my solution of turning years of internal chatter, wondering, silent suffering, and physical and mental close calls into enlightening and empowering conversations with others.

And I have a return guest today for my episode because we didn't get enough of each other the 1st time that we talked I would like everyone to welcome back Wendy Cocke, my guest from episode 42 way back in August. Does anybody remember August? It was hot as hell, and I think I recall I do. I recall that it was hot as hell that day when we visited, and today I was just sharing that I turned on my heater for the very 1st time. So a little bit has changed since the last time we were together. Say, Hi, Wendy, cock to my, to my listeners, and what's been going on in your neck of the woods.

Wendy Cocke: Oh, my goodness! Well, it's cold here in Georgia, too. Today, as I was saying before we got on it, it hasn't crossed 70 degrees all week we were down in the forties, and it is too early for that. I am not ready for winter. Where did fall? Go? The answer is nowhere. That's what it looks like in fall in Georgia, right.

Natalie P.: Do the leaves do the leaves change.

Wendy Cocke: They do, and then they fall down. Just supposed to. Yeah. Right now they're holding on for dear life, because it's supposed to be back in the early eighties, like mid eighties.

Natalie P.: Yeah, yeah.

Wendy Cocke: Just holding on. Hold on!

Natalie P.: The leaves here have been absolutely gorgeous this year. I was driving the other night after parent teacher conferences I was driving home, and the wind was. It was rushing through, and the cars were driving, and the the wind, I think, had picked up just enough to really give the trees a shake, and it was like it was like a snow, like one of those snow globes, but with leaves, and they were just everywhere. It was like, Wow! Hooray!

Wendy Cocke: I love it. Yeah, we have a bunch of Japanese maples in our yard, and they all turn red. And so when it rains down. It's like this, just blanket of red silk across.

Natalie P.: Yeah, I love it. Well, I'm glad to have you back. I we decided that when we were together in August for the 1st time that we had way too much to talk about to contain in one cast.

And so we have bumped along with the summer and come into fall. And now we're back again. When you and I were together our 1st go round, we dug into making flex work one of your best sellers, and we talked a load about what it means to redefine work, life balance to redefine life with work in it.

And we talked about, as we were calling it, the 3 B's all the B's, the boundaries, the balance, the burnout, and really, truly what it means to make flex work right?

'm sorry. That's 1 of your books, too, isn't it?

Wendy Cocke: Yeah, that's the one. Yeah.

Natalie P.: That is the one.

Wendy Cocke: One exactly throughout the book. Look at that ta-da.

Natalie P.: Happy Friday. So today we are digging into another bestseller of yours, and I'm excited to to talk to you about what it means to reimagine your work. and I'd like to just give a nibble kind of as some context. I'm going to start the backstory around this and then bring everybody back into the know with a little bit from the actual cover.

Talk about you in 3rd person, if you don't mind here for a second, that's fine. So Wendy grew up, being told she could be anything. and learned firsthand that through hard work and perseverance a small business can become the lifeblood that fuels a family. After college she spent over 20 years leading technical teams in Fortune 500 companies before totally changing the trajectory of her career in her forties to open her own business and join the faculty at her Alma Mater as a mother of 2 who spends a lot of time working from Carpool. She is officially living out her childhood dream of being a taxi driver, just like her mother.

Wendy. This is the crux of it. Wendy believes that her experience and her engineering mindset with that she can help people find their place at work and thrive once they get there. She works with people who want to think about work differently by speaking to employee audiences and providing consulting to corporate leaders looking to drive retention and productivity. So let's take this as a launch pad and start into what it means to reimagine your work.

You went from a very structured, very boxed in position. and you laid out a plan. You decided that you were going to go to flat. You had a certain schedule that you wanted you. You promoted. You gave it to your your manager if I recall and said, this is how I want to do this, and you were given time to implement it, and you implemented it. If you've seen. If you could see on your screen, on your screen, like I can see on my screen Wendy's ability to run a timeline, you would be you would be impressed. But you you kicked ass with it, and so you were given the opportunity to make your life and your work balance out right.

Wendy Cocke: Yes. Yeah.

Natalie P.: And and so that became the impetus for for even more success, and reimagining your work, and then taking this story and turning it into a way to connect with others absolutely more.

Wendy Cocke: Yeah. So you know, I, after college, as you said, I did all the things an engineer was supposed to do. I had a very successful 20 plus year career running organizations inside of fortune. 500 companies. I've worked in R and DI worked in manufacturing strategy supply chain strategy. I was running a program management office, a Pmo. I have worked on some of the biggest corporate projects for the companies that I worked for. and in January of 2022, as lots of companies do. There was a big restructure and effective immediately. I didn't have a job.

One of the best blessings was that it was coming out of the pandemic. So I got. I got laid off in my pajamas right. I was on zoom when I got the call so if you're gonna get laid off, at least at home, and comfortable is a great way to do it. But not only did I get laid off. The boss that had to lay me off had been laid off, and the head of human resources, who was in the call had also lost his job so literally, all of us sitting on the call.

We're unemployed. That should have been a day that just absolutely shook my life.

At that point I was a a mom with a middle schooler and an elementary schooler. I was in my early forties like I wasn't ready to retire. But I also wasn't young and up and coming. So where was I in this mid-career midlife state? Right? And

I was so blessed to have friends and family that gave me the best advice, and their advice was, just, take the opportunity to breathe. just take the opportunity to breathe, and at that moment. in some conversations with my husband, I said, I don't. I? I think I need to get another job. I mean, clearly we we're just not independently wealthy. Maybe some of your listeners are. We're not blessed to be independently wealthy. We need money. So he said. Why don't you just retire?

Wendy Cocke: And I laughed, and I said, What do you? What do you mean? Retire?

Wendy Cocke: And he said, Well. we on road trips, when the kids would have their headphones on and be watching a movie. We would dream about our future. and when he retires he very much wants to play golf and live by the ocean. and when I retired. I wanted to live in his dream as long as it was close enough to an airport that I could consult.

And. Because I wanted to be able to travel and work. To me retiring meant walking away from a corporate structure. It didn't mean walking away from continuing to invest in myself and other people.

And so, he said, your retirement doesn't mean you don't make money, so just do that. and it kind of shook my world. Natalie, I was like, what what do I do? What do you mean? Retire like what?

And so we decided. He said, this is just like putting a house on the market. You can put your house on the market and decide that it is not time to sell, and you can pull your house back off the market and put it back on later. So he said, Okay, let's try this consulting thing. If that's what you want to do. Let's just try it.

You've been given this opportunity with the layoff to try something different. Your momentum has stopped. That work. Inertia has has.

Natalie P.: Worse.

Wendy Cocke: And he says, and if we do it for 18 months, and it's awful, then go get a job. But let's not get a job yet.

Oh, and was he right? Oh, my gosh! I have pieced together through all the things I loved

Wendy Cocke: a way better 1st retirement than I could have ever imagined, and that's what I call it. I call it my 1st retirement, because I'll retire from this at some point, but I'm not going back to the other way because it didn't meet all my needs. I didn't realize what else was out there. because you just sort of get in the groove at work.

If you work for a company that has a career plan, you just sort of get on the treadmill and you do it. and you jump to the next project, because that's what you do. And then you jump to the next opportunity, because that's where they need you. Each time I was growing, and I was learning, and I thought I was happy.

If you'd asked me the morning I got laid off. I actually didn't get laid off until about 9 30 in the morning, and I'd had an 8 o'clock call. I was working on something really cool that I really liked at 8 o'clock. so it wasn't like I was miserable. But wow! What the other side looks like, and that's part of how reimagine your work came around is. I grew up in a small business.

and I didn't realize that I brought that small business mindset to everything that I had done in my career. Every choice I had ever made.

Not everybody has done that. And so I want to kind of move the curtain back. So people who didn't have that upbringing can see what it means to run a small business, not because you ever need to be an entrepreneur. but because that mindset, being able to think of yourself as a product, being able to realize that you are a company that sells you, even if who you're selling yourself to is a fortune. 100 company on A. W. 2.

You've got to manage your brand and your product and your R&D, so that you're evergreen.

Natalie P.: 1st and foremost, your husband's a rock star.

Wendy Cocke: Oh, I'm I'm yes, he's amazing.

Natalie P.: To give you to to have a partner in life period, right? That that is so supportive, and and says, Sweetie. you're a rock star, and we're rock stars together, and you're gonna make this work and go for it. And to be able to think out loud with you on that

I'm hearing, like you use the word midlife shakeup. And to me that midlife shakeup could come in the form of a layoff, it could come in a form of a desire to leap. and that you're you. You don't see it coming, or you dream about it coming. And you don't know. You know you're you're scared or you're you're you're worried. You're you're

in the dark about what it's gonna take. And you don't know where to start. Kind of thing. But regardless where you're headed. Is this this new found kind of frontier of having a different experience with your career, and that different experience is less about the company and more about you.

Which is, I think, generationally like if I if we look at conditioning and where we came right, I mean, I can think of my grandfather with the gold watch, and I even think I think we talked about the 1st go around. That managing yourself and running your career like a small business, is a complete shift in in a mindset, because we're just cogs in a wheel like we're right. So how am I even supposed to even start running my own like, do I even have the room? How do I get my brain around that? So I've got a couple of directions that I want to go into with you. But 1st let's put the umbrella on. We talk you. You talk about the trick to running your own career is running it like it's a small business, and you are the product.

Wendy Cocke: You are the product. And the CEO. Isn't that amazing?

Natalie P.: It is amazing. And I I wanna think about so put me in my own driver's seat and and and coach me on on what that looks like.

Wendy Cocke: So if we can start with this framework that you already run a business. and your business is to sell your product. That's what businesses do they sell products?

The product you sell just also happens to be you. What a great spot for a leader to be! And if every CEO had 100 control over their products. Of course they would be successful. Right? That's not how business works, but it does work in this instance for careers. So you run this company as the start of the company. You have to have a strategic vision for what you want your company to do.

For you? That's career planning. So what jobs do you want? What experiences do you want? What do you? What value are you extracting, and what value are you providing to your customer?

And the customer is whoever pays you so that makes sense. If we're at a bakery, the customer is the person buying the pastry right? That makes sense at target. I'm clear the customer when I'm in target. Nobody has any question as to who's the customer when I walk in with the shopping cart at target and go through the checkout line.

But when we think about a career, our customers, whoever pays this, if that's our salaried company. That's who you know the name on the top of the W. 2. If I'm a 1099 employee, it's where am I getting that? If I am driving for uber Uber is the customer of me.

The person getting in the car is the customer of Uber.

Natalie P.: Right, right.

Wendy Cocke: So I have to figure out, how do I position myself? What is the brand that I want to show for myself? So we think about? How do we come across to people? What features and benefits do I, as a product, need, so that the hiring manager wants to pick me.

Natalie P.: Yes.

Wendy Cocke: Well in in a lot of my my keynote talks. I use the story of velveeta cheese. so I'm going to indulge you in a very short story of what.

Natalie P.: Join us.

Wendy Cocke: Listeners decide not to turn off. So this is a story about 2 detectives and velveeta cheese.

So in our house I cook. But my husband does the grocery shopping. He loves grocery shopping. It is one of the things I love the most about him. because I do not love grocery shopping. but that sometimes means that I put an ingredient on the list that he doesn't know what it is, right. So there he is in the grocery store. He's got his list, and he's crossed everything off, and his cart's full, and he sees on there velveeta cheese.

This is a true story one winter, and so he does what most people would do, which is head towards the dairy section of the grocery store. because that's where cheese is sold right. But he knows that's important. I didn't just say cheese, I said Velveeta, and so now he is searching the cheese section for velveeta cheese. Some of your listeners will know that this is not going to work because velveeta is shelf stable, so it doesn't need that fancy expensive part of the grocery store.

Natalie P.: Right.

Wendy Cocke: But if you don't know that you're in a big trouble. so he does not do what I would do. I would have bought several different kinds of cheese, brought it home, and said they were out of Alvita. I got you all of these right. As a matter of fact, that's what most recruiters do. The hiring manager gives them a list of very specific skills, and the recruiter goes. I didn't find that Unicorn, but I brought you all these candidates.

Natalie P.: Interesting, right?

Wendy Cocke: They say I brought you all of these any of these gonna work? Yeah. But my husband is not a quitter. So he found a woman he later described to me as I don't know, you know, like a mom also shopping. And he pushed his card up and said, Can you help me. I need velveeta cheese.

And she said, Well, you're not gonna find it here. And he said, Excellent! Where will I find it? And she said, I have no idea. and lucky for me she is also no quitter. They spent the next 5 min going down and up every aisle, trying to find it.

They eventually found it on the end cap, because the grocery store didn't know where to put it, either. You know that end cap where they sell like batteries and seasonal items and stuff on clearance. That's where they found the Velveeta cheese, because the store didn't know either, but he came home and he was very excited. That's important, because the ooey, gooey, macaroni and cheese that my family need needs to eat and loves needs velveeta.

It's the secret ingredient right? My husband knew that that brand was important, because I had communicated that to him.

So if you want to make your brand so important that he felt like he could not come home without it. Now you have provided a line for that recruiter. because you are going to be all of those things, and that recruiter is going to be like, I need somebody that needs all these. And you are the one I'm gonna go search you out because I've heard about you. And I know this is how it's gonna work.

So you need to become someone secret and greedy. That's how this kind of brand works. But it only works if you are constantly managing it right.

It also only works if you manage your features and benefits because part of what makes that cheese so ooey and gooey is probably also what makes it so? Shelf, stable, and that it's a cheese product and not just cheese. right?

So what are you doing in your career to make sure that you have the right features and benefits, so that you meet all of that that list. If I had been shopping for cheese that day, and I couldn't find the velveeta. I knew what the exact things I would need to alter the recipe.

I could have found other cheese products. I could have probably used some cream cheese and something else, and been able to make it work.

That's what hiring managers are doing, unless you are setting yourself up for success. and, unlike the velveeta, you get to decide where you are placed right?

It's not a store stocking the shelves, so if you know that somebody's looking for cheese, and you happen to be the best cheese, get yourself in where the cheese is sold, get yourself in the right position from a brand management and a marketing standpoint, be where those recruiters are looking, so that not only do they find you, but they find you, and only you because you are exactly what they are looking for. That's how this reimagine works find your favorite product. Figure out what is happening with that favorite product that makes it so. And how do I learn from it and put it on me.

Natalie P.: I really like, I like, how the I love this. I love this concept of so I mean a lot of folks struggle with the concept of themselves as their own brand, and and what it means to market yourself as a brand. That I and and they don't spend enough time thinking about it. This is a fantastic way to frame this up, and I love it.

I think it applies in the, in the career with a recruiter with applications with, you know, like the slew of opportunities that are out that are out there that are posted, and and even those that are not posted. You see a company that you want to go work for, and you decide. You know, how do I stand out? And and I'm in front of them. In my own special way. I think it also. if I'm thinking about
 a human going out on their own and creating their own business and not knowing how to position themselves and how to compete. It is to say.
 where on the shelf do I want to be right, and how do I differentiate myself to take it even further. I look at some of these products that come out, and I'm like, how in the living hell is there room for another flavored popcorn. But somehow these folks got themselves in front of the right people at Sam's Club, or the buyers at Sam's Club for a massive truck of fill in the blank pickle flavored popcorn. Seriously.

but.

Wendy Cocke: Somebody did it.

Natalie P.: And that feature benefit, and that brand hit a spot that they they worked their asses off to figure out, where is that spot? How am I going to hit it? And how am I going to position the brand in front in direct aim of that spot?

Wendy Cocke: Absolutely. So in reimagine your work. I have a a chapter on just you as the product. And I have an online challenge that I give to the reader. And that is to use your network to figure out what your current brand is.

Natalie P.: Hmm.

Wendy Cocke: Because if you're trying to figure out how you're going to be at your own business at a company or your own business as an entrepreneur. You got to know what your baseline is. You got to know what you're already good at. What are people thinking at? So with that I have a set of 3 questions that I want people to ask their network. If you're really brave, use social media because you can get a lot really fast.

I did this on Facebook and on Linkedin and I will, and on Instagram, and I will tell you that you get different answers even from the same person with whatever platform they're engaged in. Yeah. So when they're on Facebook, they're thinking one thing when they're on Linkedin, they're thinking something else.

So the broader you can ask this question, the more data you get. You know, I'm an engineer. Data data is my life. So how can you get a lot of data fast? You can get a lot of data fast using social media. If that terrifies, you just start with your family. Start with your family and friends and ask them over dinner tonight, like it's all good.

So here are the 3 questions. The 1st question is, what one word would you use to describe me?

If you're gonna do this, you ask this question first, st because it's a really low barrier to entry?

Great if I'm doing it on social media, and I see that. And I'm like Scroll like, I don't have anything nice to say. Most people are. Not that you're connected to like. We're not doing this out on Tiktok with the world we're doing this with people we're connected to.

But if they if they see it, something will pop in their head, and one word is a low barrier to entry. You can just type it in nice, loud. enthusiastic, generous like. It doesn't matter right.

You can get a lot of data real fast, because people are like, Oh, I'll help, sure. But that sounds like fun. I'll do that the second question is.
What am I best at?

This one is a little higher barrier to entry, but this is what people are recommending you for when you're not in the room.

So you start to see, what do people say about me when I'm not there? And you'll notice that question is very strategically written as a positive.

It doesn't say just say anything about me. It's what am I best at. So I am hedging it with your only giving me positives. You're only gonna be positive. So if you're scared that you're gonna get some ugly stuff, what am I best at? Being a jerk is not something somebody's gonna put.

Natalie P.: Right, right.

Wendy Cocke: And with that you can start to see what are the things that people already think about. So if you are, I think, going out on your own for business. This might be something you want to start considering, monetizing the things people are already recommending you for things they think you excel at and then the last one is gonna sound really weird. It is. What is your favorite memory with me?

Natalie P.: Okay.

Wendy Cocke: If you're doing it on social media, you may see that the responses drop. because, depending on the platform, they might not want to be associated with this silly memory, because your favorite one is usually something really ridiculous.

But what they will do is they will private message you. They will text you. They will. DM, you. They will email you because it is, is engaged a different part of their brain. Right? We've engaged the emotional part of their brain.

Wendy Cocke: and whatever they say the memory is, you have now rekindled a relationship that you may not have talked to somebody in years. Well, there is no better way to help with your career development than to keep your network evergreen, and if you haven't talked to people in a long time, sometimes it can be real awkward to be like, Hey, I'm in a job Hunt. But if you just throw out there, what's your favorite memory with me?

And then they say it. Now you've got a reason to talk with them.

Natalie P.: Yeah, I love that.

Wendy Cocke: So all you're doing is creating this, this ability to bump into somebody. And if you are scared to do it, just say that your career coach told you to do it. Nobody has to know. That's me.

Natalie P.: Wendy told me to do it.

Wendy Cocke: Yeah, I had somebody say she she posted it on Linkedin, and she said, Wendy, I hope you don't mind. I said that my executive coach told me. and I said, Well, I I don't. I don't claim to be an executive coach, and she says, Yes, but I'm an executive, and you coached me so we're counting it perfect, whatever you want to say, right.

Natalie P.: Today you have been deemed.

Wendy Cocke: For this moment you were an executive coach. You could say I was reading this book, or I listened to this Podcast as a matter of fact. It'd be a great way if you love this podcast to highlight it with your friends. I was listening to thinking out loud, and this was the tip. So I'm throwing it out there on social media, right? Whatever makes you feel better about it. But get the data, get the data, because then your likelihood of success is so much higher.

If nobody thinks of you as a baker opening up a bakery is going to be a much steeper hill than if everybody in your life is like Oh, my gosh! You make the best cakes.

Natalie P.: I think, too, don't you think that I mean and you say, this in in your book around you know making an investment in yourself. If you're running any type of business, whether it's you as the, whether it's for another company or it's for yourself.

There is all of this. I mean, we're we. We want things so quick. And we want these quick fixes. And we want things to just work. But we have to be able to invest time, and and we have to be.

I think we have to be vulnerable around like feet. We do. I don't. Why am I being so I'm being wishy-washy about this. We have to be open to criticism and constructive feedback, and to say, your product sucks.

I mean, no, nobody's going to say, I don't think anybody will say anything negative, but you have to. Let's say you get crickets on things. You have to be able to read that as maybe I'm not being clear with who I am. As a I'm not the baker. I thought that I was right, and that, and take that in as some feedback that actually means something. And like I, I do, I love this. I love this exercise. It's it requires you to put yourself out there. And it does take some bravery. most folks are going to be pleasant and give you, you know, and if they're not, or there's a memory that they have a favorite that probably, you know, doesn't need to see the light of day, because it maybe it's

rated. R. They'll DM you right.

Wendy Cocke: That's right. They'll just DM you I will say, just like you said, if you get this feedback, and there is stuff that is missing. So let's say that you thought collaborative person.

Natalie P.: Right.

Wendy Cocke: We thought you were great at that. And out of all of this feedback you get. Nobody says you're collaborative. Maybe take a moment and reflect. Am I collaborative?

Natalie P.: Right.

Wendy Cocke: Maybe go test it. So one of the other things I encourage everybody to have is their personal board of directors. A a successful company has a board of directors. They have people who help guide. You should have that as well. And when you get this feedback you should be asking it and pressure, testing it with that board of directors to say, Is this true? Because if you don't, you are no different than the Emperor in his new clothes. You have to have people who are willing to speak truth to you. And so you take this data. And you're like nobody said collaborative. And I feel like I'm super collaborative. You need to be able to be like, I'm sorry, Natalie. No, you are not collaborative. You think you are, but you steamroll people.

Natalie P.: That is.

Wendy Cocke: An important thing for you to know. The other place to look is. if you only get positive feedback, which is possible in this exercise. Go back and look at every performance review you've ever gotten. because, as a as a people leader, I will tell you, I was required to put development opportunities every year for all of my team.

There are some things that I got feedback on that, I said. That's interesting. I'm not going to do anything about it. From the time I entered corporate America until the time I left corporate America
 across 20 plus performance reviews. At least 90% of them said I was loud and I had high energy as a negative.

Natalie P.: As negatives.

Wendy Cocke: Well, because I worked in engineering. Let's think about what that architect looks like. Right.

Natalie P.: Yes. Yeah.

Wendy Cocke: Guess what, when I stand in front of a hundred 50 juniors from college, and have to command their attention for an hour. My feedback now, says one of the most interesting lecturers on Campus. So yeah, it was negative. In one instance I chose not to change it.

It wasn't hurting me. Now. I leverage it. I leverage it to be able to talk to people on podcasts. There's just not that many engineers that have my personality.

Natalie P.: Yeah, yeah.

Wendy Cocke: There just aren't.

Natalie P.: No. it it does. What flashed into my head earlier. Was the 3 60 Review. and early on I had I was a young manager and I had a team of about.

It was tiny. It was only like 7 or 8 of us. So I mean the 3 60 right. You're gonna like the anonymity of of 7 folks is, you know, not really gonna be that great but but then and then, if I recall, we you get, you get friends, you get family, you get different types of people in your life, and you send them the questionnaire right? And the point of my story is that I had a young woman, and we were similar. We are similar in age, and and were then. 

and she was her feedback. Broke my heart. It did! It broke my heart. I I was.

I was totally blown away at how she I'm trying to bring up the exact words, and I probably should have thought about it before I brought it up. But I just I was mortified. It was unintentional. So the the concept of, you know, being brave and and being open to constructive criticism. It's not to say that you're intentionally not collaborative, or you're intentionally, you know, cut people off and interrupt. You may be very excited. And so how do I work on it? I need to, you know, work on my listening skills. I need to listen, to hear instead of respond like fill in the blanks.

And I remember being like just so so grateful that the the feedback came, and that I was given an opportunity to connect with her and and rework our relationship so total sidebar. But becoming that, then use going back to, you know, using this metaphor of of ourselves as product. It made me that much better made me a lot more shelf, stable.

Wendy Cocke: Sure did.

Natalie P.: That way.

Wendy Cocke: Yeah, it made you a lot more marketable. You know, every product has a bug somewhere, right? Every product has a weakness. and companies spend a lot of time and money in R&D on the next generation of their products. In order to stay evergreen, they are constantly evolving. If we all still had the 1st iphone, how different would the world be?

It's okay, we all accept that. We're gonna get an Ios update. We all accept that. There'll be the next generation that has these new features and and addresses some of the issues that we have with the earlier models give ourselves that same grace.

We are not the same product that was introduced, I mean, maybe if you're 20, but if you're not 20, you are not the same product that was introduced right out of college or right out of high school. You're allowed to evolve. You're allowed to become version 2.0 and 3.0 of yourself.

Because if you didn't, who would want you anyway?

Natalie P.: Yep. don't. Well, and I and you know.

Wendy Cocke: Thinking about yourself as a product really gives you the ability to grow from that feedback, because products grow and evolve.

Natalie P.: Yeah, yeah.

in a midlife shakeup, where you're not quite sure what your product is. And you're not quite sure you know how how you're going to market yourself, or you're looking at a complete overhaul. And you're like, I don't like what I've how I've been marketing myself, and I want to take this in a whole different direction. So, you know, using your frame framework of, you know, creating this strategic plan as you would for a business, the business of you.

So that you see your gaps, and you see what it's going to take to go to market with this new you. Let's say you're pursuing a passion in consulting you're pursuing a passion in speaking, or what have you? And taking yourself on a roadshow? What do you need to shore up. And what skills do you need to have to make you that much more marketable and and ready for market?

I really like this, I really appreciate this thinking.

Wendy Cocke: Yeah, I think the strategic plan framework gives you the ability to make changes over time because a strategic plan is not a tactical plan. I didn't say, create a tactical plan. What am I going to do in the next 90 days? I said. A strategic plan and a strategic plan gives you the time and the space to evolve.

You have to have the courage to put it on paper.

1st of all.

I always say, write a strategic plan and write it in pencil. Right? Don't be using a sharpie because you're gonna want to change it, because, one. by the way, every strategic plan gets edited. Nobody. I don't know of any company that ever makes it to the end of their strategic plan. It's a 3 to 5 Year Plan that they update every 2 to 3 years. And that's what you can do with your career. You could say, where do I want to be in 3 to 5 years? And what do I do to get there when I talk to undergrads as they are getting ready to leave and go out to be engineers?

This is the 1st time in their life that there's not a plan.

K. 12 is very linear. You just do kindergarten, and then 1st grade and then second grade, and we know what you need to do when you get into college. There's a lot more freedom. But we still have those course catalogs, you know, like what classes you have to take generally in what sort of order they need to be taken, based on their level and their prerequisites.

And you know what success looks like it's completing this checklist and getting my degree. But the minute you leave that in educational environment now, what does success look like? And what does my plan look like is really hard. So I spend a lot of my time talking to students about this idea of a strategic plan, and when I talk to them. I don't use strategic plan because they're not in the workforce yet. but I use this idea of creating their own course catalog. So for any of your listeners who are younger, or maybe trying to advise somebody as a in a mentoring relationship.

I encourage them to go look at jobs that they are not yet qualified for. so, as a about to graduate, they should be looking for entry level jobs, but I encourage them to go look at jobs that say they require 3 to 5 years of experience. not because they are going to apply for those jobs. As a matter of fact, they should not apply for those jobs. Let's just make it really clear. Do not apply for jobs that you do not meet any of the criteria for.

Natalie P.: Right.

Wendy Cocke: Right like, let's just say that. But if they go find, and I assign them homework of 10, go find 10 jobs that require 3 to 5 years, more experience than you have in their case. 0.

And look at what those jobs are and say, these are ones I like. So find 10 that you like that you're like, oh, 5 years from now I would love to do that. That sounds really interesting. Now go look at the what are the requirements to get that job?

And if you have gotten 10 jobs you like each of them has. I don't know 7 to 15 requirements. Now you've got like 70 to 150 data points of what you need to do in the next 3 years.

Do you need to be managing teams? Do you need to be getting technical depth in a particular area? Do you need an advanced degree do you need?

Now? You can start to build it out. That's really just a strategic plan. But for somebody who hasn't done that so for any of your listeners that don't have that framework of strategic plan. Just think about put a roadmap together. Of what do I want to be doing n the future, dreaming of it

Wendy Cocke: for me. I had been dreaming about what I wanted to do 7 years in the future.

I wanted to retire 7 years in the future from when 8 years in the future, from when I got laid off sorry years in the future.

I'd been dreaming about that. So the day I got laid off I didn't have to say, What do I want to do later. Could just say. is there any way I can accelerate that 8, that 8 Year Plan? Can I just bring it forward? What can we do now?

Because I was already dreaming. So anybody who's not dreaming about what the next job is you're doing yourself a disservice. The next job could be a promotion in your own company, it could be moving out. You don't have to tell people your dreams. I dream lots of stuff that I don't tell anybody.

But if you're having those dreams and you're starting to think about this strategically. you are now in control of your destiny.

Because if somebody says this job opens up, even in your own company, you can pressure test it against where you want to be in 3 to 5 years and decide if it's a good move for you.

Maybe it's a good move, because you still just need the benefits.

Natalie P.: Yeah.

Wendy Cocke: But maybe it's a good move, because it gives you features and skills that allow you to check off another box towards that next job.

Natalie P.: And if you are a listener, there's so many other ways this can be applied to that I would encourage people to think about, and that is, there's young people who see that that are that are that horizon. Seems it's pretty far out there. So let me backtrack into or or back myself into what I want to accomplish getting out there.

Second application is. you're in your forties. You're in your fifties, and you say I don't want to be fill in the blank a teacher any longer. I don't want to be in corporate America. This is what I want to do, but I've got 5. I'm going to do this in 5 years and make an action plan, because 5 years good gravy is not that long? It's not that small.

And you.

Wendy Cocke: Almost 5 years since the start of the pandemic.

Natalie P.: That's insanity to me. and thank you to the pandemic. That hyper just accelerated all of this, the learning opportunities and the courses, the online courses for 1799. Like, if even if you just want to dabble and you want to go see if there's something else out there that you know that you you could find fulfillment in?

And then another application that just sprang through my brain is. Find yourself a mentor that thinks like Wendy does that is in. If you are at a company a manager that thinks like. and and my one of my dear, dear friends, when she brings on new people into entry level. She talks about the 5 Year Plan.

I don't want you don't have to be here in 5 years. Where? Who do you want to be as a human being, is it? Here? Is it elsewhere? Let me help you get there and and find a mentor and find someone who invests in you and helps you realize the importance of investing in yourself and the strategic plan. And this course catalog of your life. I think that's great right.

Wendy Cocke: Yeah, if you if you are a people leader and you are scared to talk to your team about what is 5 years from now for them, because you think it means you're going to lose them.

I would just like to tell you that if you're not having that conversation with them. The chances of you losing them are much higher.

Natalie P.: Yeah. Meat.

Wendy Cocke: You are going to lose them because you're not having these conversations they don't feel invested in. They don't feel like you understand them. They don't feel like you care about them as a whole person, you are more likely to lose them, not having the conversation than having the conversation. because I know. That's why a lot of managers don't want to do it. They don't want well, I don't want them to dream about not working here. Oh, don't worry. They're dreaming about not working.

Natalie P.: Oh, yeah, whether you.

Wendy Cocke: Don't worry.

Natalie P.: We're humans, right?

Wendy Cocke: That's right, that's right. And and if you if you weren't talking about not working there with them, their friends are, don't you worry.

Natalie P.: Yeah. They're talking about you.

Yeah.

Wendy Cocke: Just so, you know.

Natalie P.: They're and if they're good at their jobs, they're being looked at. They're they're out there networking. And they're doing their thing. Yeah, I mean.

Wendy Cocke: But they want to work for a manager or a leader who wants to pour into them, who is invested in them as a human, you are more likely to retain them.

Natalie P.: And because.

Wendy Cocke: Pause, you add the conversation.  Because they know that you want what's best for them.

Yep, yep, yeah.

Natalie P.: So let me recap really fast. We just dug into the concept of reimagine your work and the reimagining of yourself as your own product managing your career like it's your business.

You are also this, the author of making flex work and you're the founder of engineering leadership solutions where all of this? All of these books and and your brain is kind of that's your digital storefront. Are you working on anything in particular right now you've got other books up your sleeve. You've you're you're teaching your tell me what you're up to, and and if there's any lugs on special projects you want to make.

Wendy Cocke: So over the summer. I did collaborate with 14 other authors on a book called When work Works.

Natalie P.: That's right.

Wendy Cocke: Yep, so it is a super eclectic group of authors, spanning from spiritual and religious perspectives through very corporate perspectives and everything in between and in there I my chapters around hybrid work and how to make hybrid work effective. What are the things leaders need to look at that is available on Amazon, and my chapter is available for free on my website. So at engineeringleadershipsolutions.com, you could read my chapter for free, totally available to download. You don't have to buy the whole book if you don't want. But the whole book is also very interesting.

Natalie P.: Yeah.

Wendy Cocke: I said, when I started writing, making flex work, that I thought there were 3 books.

Natalie P.: Hmm.

Wendy Cocke: I don't think the 3rd one is ready yet, and I say that because from an audience standpoint making flex work, I was able to talk to the younger me. I was able to talk to the younger me and say, Look, this is a way that you can be successful, because when I was that younger me? I was drowning, and I did not feel successful. When I wrote reimagine your work, it was really to pull back that curtain right? It was to say, you know what I've done this through a career. I've taken this huge pivot.

I've come out on the other side of it. Let me show you that it's not so scary, and this is why it wasn't scary. Let me just take that fear away, especially in a time where so many people are, seeing that transition.

The 3rd one. I think it is going to be a piece of how it's gonna piece together. All of the different leadership experiences that I have had throughout my career. and I don't know that I'm going to write it alone. because my career has not been alone. Right? So I don't know what that 3rd one looks like. It's maybe a 2025 project. It's on my my dream list to start working on in 2025.

But I've got to make sure I understand. How will it bring a reader value?

I don't want to write a book just to write a book.

I want to write a book that will bring value to to the one who's going to invest the time to read it. But I think it will be focused on leadership, and I hope that when it appears you will have me on to talk about it again.

Natalie P.: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Part 3 with Wendy hashtag something. We gotta come up with something.

Wendy Cocke: Something.

Natalie P.: Wendy. Yes.

I love it.

You are in Metro Atlanta. You have if I remember, it's the rolling circus that.

Wendy Cocke: Thank you.

Natalie P.: You you travel with? Is everybody intact on your end, and feeling good about coming into winter.

Wendy Cocke: We are as a matter of fact, the rolling circus for the the people that did not listen to the previous episode. That is my household network. We actually have 2 houses next door to each other. So my husband and my 2 children and I live in one house.  and my mother and my grandmother live in the house next door, and at the time of this recording, it is 4 o'clock on a Friday afternoon. We have dinner plans at 5 30 to go out and get beer and wings as a whole rolling circus, which means my 4 will go over next door, load into the Suv with the other 2 crazy ladies, and go out to dinner because it's Friday night. That's what we do.

Natalie P.: I love that

I love it. That's great.

Thank you for for coming back around and and piping in with me, and and thinking out loud with me and being so committed to your calling. And just yeah, being passionate about what you do to the point where you're able to empower others and it. It is very much a gift that you bring to the world, and I appreciate you.

Wendy Cocke: Thank you so much. Yeah, for any of your listeners. The activity that we talked about the.

Natalie P.: Exercise.

Wendy Cocke: Those are all free on the website. I am a 1 woman show here. So if you go to making flexwork.com reimagineyourwork dot com or engineering leadership solutions.com whichever one you remember, they all go to the same place, and they all have all the resources.

Natalie P.: Yeah, very cool, and I'll put everything in the show notes. I love the 3 questions.

Natalie P.: The chapter, and just in general. If there's a calling to to actually work with you. To be in touch with you directly. So awesome. Thank you.

And I want to thank folks for listening in for thinking out loud with me and today's return guest. It's an honor to have spent some extra time in love with Wendy Cocke out of Atlanta, Georgia, and I know that you have a ton of different opportunities to spend your time, and so that makes me super honored that you would choose to listen in with us today until we visit again. I hope that you'll go live with love and intention, and please please don't let anybody fuck with your flow.

big hugs, big love

bye friends.